23 September 2015

Love and abandonment

(Originally published: January 2010)

Earlier today whilst reading comments regarding "A Primal Wound", I found this quote in a comment by an adoptive father who claimed it was the best he'd ever heard:

“If I loved my child any less, I'd still have him with me.”

I was repulsed. Utterly and completely repulsed. This is the same vitrol, the very same lie I heard over and over again like a mantra during my days in hospital after declaring I would raise my child.

A manipulation of the very worst kind, to abuse the love a mother has for her child so that she would rip their relationship to shreds for the sake of another family to be created. Just vile.

This comment has been in my head all day and I am angry. Angry this lie is still being used to lure mothers into placing their babies with strangers. Angry that people still live in this bubble. Angry that anyone could believe such a lie.

It makes a mockery of all other parents who choose to raise their children themselves. It negates Nature and the normal methods of building a family (yes, that's right, I don't view adoption as a normal way of building a family).

This ghastly quote goes hand in hand with the concept that a mother who chooses to raise her own child is selfish and only looking out for her own needs. No, its NATURAL... you know, the normal way of life to have a baby and then raise them. Again, this is where we see hypocrisy in adoption raise its head. It is expected for a mother wearing a wedding band with a comfortable home with all the materialistic trappings to give birth and keep her child. This is accepted and expected. Take away all these things and suddenly a mother who does not have these things is different somehow. The only way she can prove her love seemingly, is to abandon her child to others to raise. Keep the baby and she is labelled selfish and told she is showing how little she loves her own baby.

What a dirty, evil lie. Manipulative. Cruel. Warped. Twisted.

Love cannot be judged by what house you have, how much money you have in the bank account. I have witnessed mothers who have nothing but a bed and a piece of tarpaulin for a home, parent. They loved their child just as much as any rich Westerner and love is not measured by the things we have. Giving away your child only sends one message to your child: You didn't want me and you don't love me. My daughter's adopters have told my daughter (albeit all lies) that I gave her up because I loved her so much blah blah blah but HER EXPERIENCE despite having all the so called love this person goes on about, she still feels abandoned and unloved by me, her mother... I know because she told me. So this lie has caused pain not only to me, but to HER. All the love in the world from biological strangers is never going to take THAT pain away. She needs to feel MY love, the truth of our bond.

To all young expectant mothers out there who are scared and concerned and have no idea what to do... please do not fall for this lie. Keeping your child is the NATURAL thing to do and should be your first option. Giving up your baby has nothing to do with love at all, it is all about desperation and fear. For most mothers, it is not even a choice that enters their heads... don't be fooled by the industry driven dribble that will tell you to prove your love by handing your baby, your flesh and blood who knows and wants only you, to strangers. I am not saying they wouldn't love your baby... but it isn't about that really at the end of the day. Anyone, any person in their right frame of mind would want a child to stay with his or her mother. Infant adoption survives on the lie that if you love your child you will give them away... translation: abandon your child so we can fill a quota. No love in that equation.

If I followed this senseless logic, this vile lie, my husband and I would have given up my other two children when they were born. But we didn't BECAUSE WE LOVE THEM. DOH!

As Joss Shawyer indicates in her book "Death by Adoption", a mother is told to give her child up because she loves him/her but what no one tells her is that if she really loves him/her, she would keep them. And I agree. Adoption from the perspective of the infant and his or her mother is the most UNNATURAL thing and is against everything in their world of normality. This relationship is created strong for a reason and nothing and nobody is meant to come between them. There is research done on this topic to prove what I say... research to prove that a bond between a mother and the child she has given birth to is deeper than just biology.

Someone once told me that adoption was natural because it happens in the animal kingdom. Actually, that is another lie. Adoption is a human legality that severs biological relationships. As animals do not have a legal system, adoption in their "kingdom" is non-existent. There is no such thing as adoption to an animal. Sure, there are stories about a kitten being raised by a pack of dogs or some sort of thing but this isn't adoption. Oh no. That is just an example of another species caring for an abandoned/orphaned creature. It has nothing to do with legalities, manipulating a mother to place her child because she "loves" them etc. It is purely an example of what we as a human race should be doing: looking out for the weaker ones and supporting them until they are strong again.

Sadly, the human race is more content on kicking our weaker members of our race while they are down, heck I have even had that very confession from an adoptress out of her own fingers. The role (according to some disillusioned/twisted members of the human race) of mankind is NOT to support those in need but to benefit from the pain and suffering of others. Enter adoption as a prime example.

So yeah. Loving a child so much you give him/her away? Nup. Doesn't work for me and most people living in the real world.

Please check out Cassi's, Jenni's and Mei-Ling's blogs for different perspectives on this issue. Each of them have eloquently offered another inside look into what these words mean to them.

67 comments:

  1. Yeah, that comment really struck me to.

    And you are 100% right that such rehetoric spewed off to a pregnant woman is, and has been for so very long, the driving force in separating her from her child.

    If you love them you will give them up. It's selfish to keep your baby, look at everything you can't offer them. You can't live on love alone.

    Love . . . love . . . love.

    What better way to pull at a mother's heart, to make her already feel insignificant before she even tries parenting. Tell her she doesn't love "enough" by keeping her child.


    Love isn't nice homes, vacations and material objects. Love is holding your child's hand when they first learn to walk. It's being there for them through their nightmares, celebrating with them their accomplishments.

    Love is standing at the door and watching them sleep with a smile on your face. It's holding them in your arms and never wanting to let go.

    To love your child means to be there to offer your child your love. It does not mean to give away your baby to another woman to supply the material things, the "better" things.

    If you love your baby - keep your baby so that you can be a part of every day of their life, letting them know over and over again just how deep your love is for them.

    That's love!

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  2. "Giving away your child only sends one message to your child: You didn't want me and you don't love me."

    As a child, that is exactly what I believed.

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  3. Thanks for your post. I read Cassi's post as well, and I did kind of a spin off thought and linked you. If you'd like me to remove the link from my post, I'll be glad to, but I wanted people to hear what you had to say.

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  4. Adoptive parents are villified?
    !!! Where?

    I only see them being praised as wonderful saviors in most of the media.

    And the places where they are cast in a somewhat negative light, said light is usually justified.
    Like when they make everything about themselves and how wonderful they are.

    Gee, it's amazing to me that this adopter has the nerve to make these kinds of comments especially considering the context of your blog. Basically her phrase is saying that mothers who are in any kind of crisis don't have the right to be parents. Her nice little quote is her way of telling you and all first mothers that they don't deserve their children. That's nervy.

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  5. Check out this website...
    for Crisis Pregnancy Outreach. They do open adoptions like they are going out of style and their mantra is...
    sometimes a mother has to love her child enough to be willing to live separately for the good of the child.
    As an adoptee it disgusts me that they are speaking for adoptees like they know what is "best" for us. I think it is something like www.cpotulsa.org but will do a search for it.

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  6. Hi Cassi :)

    Yeah, it was that kind of grab you by the throat kind of quote wasn't it? Its sad this is still being used so often and thant anyone could think giving a child qualifys as love.

    You are correct, love is doing all those things you listed. The dfinition of Love is manipulated to suit so many things but it doesn't mean it is love.

    Sisterheping, what else could it mean to a child? Children are very good at taking all the complexities adults add to a situation and calling things for what they are. It is a shame their voices are not listened to more often.

    Hi Jenni, thanks for your comment. Thanks for the link ! I popped over and had a read of your post too and it was fabulous. It is great we can all add to this discussion :)

    Myst

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  7. Hi Beth,

    Fortunately, it wasn't my blog but that of another mother. Sadly this mother feels this adoptive parent makes several valid points (not sure what they are though, everything he said incensed me).

    Yeah... the whole villified thing got me too... its not a new thing I have heard however and I am astounded how self serving some adopters can be because they find out that not everyone thinks they are wonderful and agree with them. I know all are not the same but this one is a real doozy and saldy I know too many who feel the same way.

    The comment was said in relation to a Primal Wound book discussion and this person't belief that because the children will be so loved by their adoptive parents then the primnal wound theory will be just a myth. Too much to say on THAT issue!

    Thanks for your comment :)

    Hi Peach,

    Ugh! That website sounds awful and that statement sounds about right for what they are trying to achieve. If they are a pregnancy crisis centre, what are they doing promoting adoption? They should be supporting the mother and letting her know ALL her options with parenting being number one.

    Sick, sick people.

    Thanks for letting me know about it, will have to have a sticky and maybe send them something to let them know how their lie is just that: a lie.

    Myst xxx

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  8. You know, I am just a lurker here, I am not trying to take sides. I see a LOT of anger for the system, the adoptive parents, your parents, anyone but YOURSELF. I gave birth to three kids and let me tell you, the only way to separate them from me would be to tie me down and knock me unconscious. YOU chose to have unprotected sex, YOU chose to listen to all those people, YOU signed the papers. YOU have to take responsibility. I am not saying all this out of hate, but this is the only way out of the shadows towards forgiveness. It’s the only way to heal. You are doing yourself, your family and your adopted child a real disservice by hanging in the shadows, for THEY have to live there with you by no choice of their own. Again, please, don’t feel offended or hated. It is not my goal. Take steps to heal for the sake of everyone involved.

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  9. "I gave birth to three kids and let me tell you, the only way to separate them from me would be to tie me down and knock me unconscious."

    And what if someone DID do that to you? Then what?

    "YOU chose to have unprotected sex, YOU chose to listen to all those people, YOU signed the papers."

    ... and here we go again, with the old, old line of "YOU opened your legs!"

    Sigh.

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  10. Yeah, because no adopter EVER has had unprotected sex!
    They are all virgins until marriage.
    It's just those dirty, nasty "birth mothers" who fornicate, right?!

    No, it's not right.

    Olya, I think you need to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you start judging mothers.

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  11. What if? what if? That's not what happened. Again, I am not accusing you, it's not my place. But you can not change what you do not acknowledge. I don't mean adoption, of course, you can't change that. I mean your life (and your family's) afterwards.All I said was that you need to take responsibility and forgive instead of blaming the whole world for your own decision. You will still have to live with the pain - it's the natural consequence of our mistakes. We all make them and have to live with the pain. The question is HOW you live with it. It is for you to answer.
    Sorry for the crudeness, but you did open them, didn't you? (notice that's not my choice of language)

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  12. Hey Olya, guess what? I did open my legs! You know why? Because I like sex - get over it (or try getting off on it, then you might understand).

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  13. Olya: Why are you attacking the core of what it means to be a woman by vilifying the mention of sex?

    That is what we are wired to do, yet in adoption it suddenly becomes an irresponsible sin.

    "What if? what if? That's not what happened."

    Then don't judge others who HAVE had it happen to them.

    For the record... I am not Myst.

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  14. If adoption was never mentioned, then you would *never* say the line "YOU opened your legs!"

    Right?

    Only in adoption does it become a consequence, a thing to be shameful of. Only in adoption is it considered malfunctioning, something that needs to be irrevocably shamed, erased, pretend it did not happen.

    Don't shame people for the act that we were created to do.

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  15. "I gave birth to three kids and let me tell you, the only way to separate them from me would be to tie me down and knock me unconscious."

    So... what? You came here to tell us how much better you are than mothers who lost their children to adoption? Well since you mention it... many mothers WERE tied down, unconscious, drugged, confined, lied to, manipulated and coerced... or told their baby had died, in order to be obtained for an adoption transaction. Do you advocate for child abduction and human trafficking for profit? Do you support the abuse and exploitation of fertile women? Just asking...

    "YOU chose to have unprotected sex, YOU chose to listen to all those people, YOU signed the papers. YOU have to take responsibility."

    Wow, sweetheart, for 'just a lurker' you sure do have issues.

    You know, not all women have unprotected sex. And not all women who do take precaution, prevent pregnancy.

    Have you BOTHERED to read Myst's blog? Do you know what was done to separate her and her daughter? What about rape? Do you believe a woman is responsible for being raped?

    Do you believe a signature (let me make this easy for you) obtained under duress or forged is legal? Again, just wondering...

    I'll have to disagree with your comment about 'doing a disservice to a child'. Not A child. Not THE child. OUR child. How is it a "disservice" to a child for them to know they are loved and wanted by their true mother? You know, many adoptees are sick and tired or their a-rents (a term adoptees use to describe their adopters;)dismissing and ignoring their experience and their feelings. Adopters will actually accuse the child living with them of being 'ungrateful' and 'angry' if they do want to know their mother. Why is that, btw? Didn't get what you paid for? Don't tell me... you fell for the sw's "promise" of 'yours for life'. Wow... anything to push through that adoption transaction. Do you know that some people who were adopted are being adopted-back by their families? That, and LEGALLY terminating an adoption they had no choice in. No? You should really educate yourself and try to have some kind of understanding of why adoption is needless and disgusting.

    Have you ever actually spoken to a mother who lost her child? Have you ever listened to a person who was adopted? Do you have any clue what adoption separation does to a mother and her child?

    BTW, if you ever lose your child, don't bother coming here for sympathy. You get I'm saying? Did you catch that? YOU may not have any control over some crazy who decides to abduct your child... pretty friggin frightening, isn't it?

    Take yourself back to your higher place.

    NO, we did not "choose" to "willingly" surrender our babies.

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  16. "Well since you mention it... many mothers WERE tied down, unconscious, drugged, confined, lied to, manipulated and coerced... or told their baby had died, in order to be obtained for an adoption transaction"

    Watch. S/he'll come back and say that she never would have allowed that to happen to her.

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  17. No, it becomes shameful and a sin when it's done out of the context of marriage, the contexts it was intended for and adoption is the price both the mother and the child are paying...and paying... and paying. And I said it a few times that I DO NOT judge. Also, when you said adoption wasn't in the picture when it happened you are just not thinking your actions through to their logical conclusion. What did you think was going to happen? Sorry, I don't mean YOU personally. I did visit your blog so I know that YOUR personal situation is different. You are arguing against adoption though, aren't you? Adoption maybe the only option other then abortion to some people. Would you really see all those wonderful children murdered rather then seeing them placed with families that will love them? We personally are considering adoption not because we can not have children, but because we would like to give a child a chance to have a loving home. I was trained as a CASA volunteer, I saw the abuse first hand. Adoption is a wonderful option! Well, I guess I am going into a different subject here.
    Again, I would like ti stress that we were made to enjoy sex IN MARRIAGE!!!

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  18. "No, it becomes shameful and a sin when it's done out of the context of marriage"

    Um... since when? I guess all those college students and graduates should be ashamed of themselves then. They're not married.

    "And I said it a few times that I DO NOT judge."

    Er, yes, you do. And you have. Calling sex shameful outside of marriage? Judging. Criticising a woman for opening her legs? Judging.

    "Also, when you said adoption wasn't in the picture when it happened you are just not thinking your actions through to their logical conclusion. What did you think was going to happen?"

    That maybe a woman can have sex and then PARENT?

    "Adoption maybe the only option other then abortion to some people. Would you really see all those wonderful children murdered rather then seeing them placed with families that will love them?"

    No. There's three.
    1. Adoption.
    2. PARENTING.
    3. Abortion.

    You forgot the parenting aspect. What makes you think that a woman who has had sex before marriage should be deemed unfit to raise a child? I see college and university students on the bus with their children!

    "Adoption is a wonderful option!"

    If you gain from it, yes.

    "Again, I would like ti stress that we were made to enjoy sex IN MARRIAGE!!!"

    So this explains it. You have a traditional mindset. No one should have sex before marriage. Gotcha.

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  19. "No, it becomes shameful and a sin when it's done out of the context of marriage"

    Which god made that rule? We don't all follow the same god and I don't believe that marriage is a requirement for sex. If you do, so be it.

    And of course the truth comes out -lurker Olya is a PAP. For children who do not have a safe family to live with adoption is important. For infants born to young (or poor, or single) mothers, adoption is sold as a solution to a problem that does not exist. These babies are not abused or abandoned; they are commodities that command a high price by the adoption sales rep.

    Foster care vs.newborn adoption: apples and oranges.

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  20. wow, Lissa, all that anger. That's what I mean by 'being angry at the whole world' and 'forgiveness'. Let me address a few of your comments. First of all, I do not think myself better then you, trust me, I have my own personal mistakes to be sorry for. Second, I do indeed know a person who was adopted, lost a child (hers actually died, not lost to adoption), was trying to adopt herself and was scammed...twice. So, I do know what I am talking about a little bit. Yes, you are right, there's rape and human trafficking, and of course I do not support that. Let me also tell you, that in my view a child's life is sacred and no rape will ever change that. As far as being tied down and drugged, I didn't use pain meds to be clear minded and my hubby went everywhere with the babies after birth just to avoid possible mistakes. Why are you all attacking me anyway? You want to continue in your misery - go for it! It was just a thought, that maybe we all can use forgiveness and that it's out there for you to have!
    Also, if I ever do loose a child, there's a much better place to go to.

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  21. "Also, if I ever do loose a child, there's a much better place to go to."

    Yes there is, it's called the land of silence and denial. What you are reading here is the refusal of adoptees and mothers to go to that land. We write and speak no matter how uncomforatable that makes you and the rest of society who are so enamored with the "adoption is beautiful" myth.

    We're here and we won't be silenced.

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  22. Sex was made for marriage since creation. It's not judging, it's stating the fact. It was ordained by YOUR God and mine, the CREATOR of the universe...unless you think there were several, which altimately doesn't change the reality. I do not profit by adoption. Like I said, having children is not an issue for us. And, yes, it is a sin reagrdless of your age. SEX IS FOR MARRIEAGE ONLY. That way you don't have a dillema of what to do with your baby. I you want to parent, who says no? Go for it! It was you who chose adoption!
    Ok, I would love to say it was nice talking to you all, if it wasn't for all the anger from your side of the issue. I have to go no. Please, know that you DO have a future and hope, you don't have to stay bitter and angry. I wish I could help!

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  23. no, that place is called the cross, where God gave His Son so that you know forgivness

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  24. Sorry, Olya, trying to insist you're right because of your supposedly superior religious beleifs just doesn't cut it in the 21st century.

    Good luck messing with some adoptee's head - I hope he/she doesn't turn out to be the ungrateful sort.

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  25. Dear Maybe,
    I have taken many griefs and pains, regrets and sins to the cross over the years and have never returned empty handed. You can have peace and forgivness, too. What does your 21st century post-modernism offer you? How many years have you spent in the same darkness and misery, going to the same blogs for support and only finding the same emptiness and pain? New life is within your grasp. It is never too late.
    Now I REALLY need to go. Sorry about everything that happened to you. Rememeber, there's a God who can help you turn it all around.

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  26. Excuse me Olya, for someone who is a lurker you have much reading to do and you have no clue what you are talking about.

    Last I looked, RAPE is not about choosing to have unprotected sex but a crime against a woman and a very serious crime at that so maybe you should learn to read properly before you start typing.

    I have never yet deleted comments from my blog but I am more than happy to get rid of your vile spew if you cannot remember to have some decorum and respect.

    And if you are a christian, then I feel very sad for you because you seem to have forgotten all the values God upholds. Stop lying to yourself and start reading your bible or whatever.

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  27. Olya,
    You words are hurtful, but I'm gonna try to meet you where you are because I believe that if you really "got it" you would be regretful of some of the things you have said.

    First of all, I am a person who does believe that God says sex is for marriage. But this is not really the appropriate place to argue that belief because this is an eccelctic group of people who do not all share the same faith. And it is not really what is being discussed. I don't know your intention for posting here or what you intended to accomplish, but if you had any compassion, it was veiled by your statement about someone having to rip your children from you in order for you to part with them. There really is this HUGE myth out there that women who have relinquished children have mostly done so willingly. That is just not the case. I really do hope that you would never have to experience what it is like to be in the position of many of the women here. It is like choosing death for yourself and your child. The cherry on top is that this process (adoption) is marketed as such a wonderful, happy, beautiful thing, that a person like you could come here and without any knowledge of what it is like to lose a child in this way, speak as if you understand. Olya, we seem to have similar spiritual beliefs, but surely you are not so callous as to believe that relinquishing a child is punishment for sex outside of marriage. I believe I was wrong to do what I did, but I also believe that my God has forgiven me, and that I am not "doing penance" for my actions as a 17 year old. My experiences give me compassion for other people and help me to understand that I cannot force anyone to think like me or embrace my point of view. I can only live out my faith and hope that it will be evidence of something different and awesome in my life.

    As for the anger and bitterness label, I would love for you to read a post that I recently wrote regarding that subject. It is one thing to lay your agony at the foot of the cross every day. It is another to have a righteous anger against unethical practices that continue to take place in the name of Christian ministry. Please have compassion for people even if they don't think like you. You can't TELL someone to heal and move on. And you certainly can't expect someone who does not share your faith to think and act like you. Blessings,
    Jenni

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  28. Actually, Olya isn't a christian. Not in the true sense. She has no idea of what it is to live the faith; she only knows how to spew rhetoric.

    I have been raised in a christian family my whole life; daughter of a minister AND missionaries so I have probably had more christianianity in my life than most people I know. Which has meant I know now the church and God have as much to do with each other these days as oil and water. In other words, nothing.

    Olya is the stereotypical narrow minded, blinded individual who goes through life with blinkers on. She has no life experience as she has so eloquently shown here, no compassion or empathy or the ability to understand life and what that is.

    God never actually said no sex before marriage and Jesus himself showed more compassion to prostitutes than he did temple people. Kinda says something. Olya has shown herself to be a Pharisee... and we all know how much Jesus was fond of them don't we?

    As for the Bible and what it says... too many people forget the Bible was written by man-kind and it was their perceptions of what God said. I have many issues with Paul's interpretation of the word; he was after Jesus and none of what he says is backed up by Jesus anywhere. He is the one who goes on about being married so you can enjoy sex but nowhere else does this get talked about in great detail.

    Anyway, the topic of this blog is not religion.

    Olya, I am sad for you that you live in such a narrow world. It must be very dull and colourless. I was like you for a long time as a young teenager and lived in that very restrictive world. I judged anyone who did anything outside what I believed was a christian code of conduct because I listened to too many others... like you are doing. And then the unthinkable happened and I was raped.

    I started opening my eyes and seeing how God loved ALL His people and it was not my place to judge. I started reading my bible and questioning everything I had been raised with. Pray you never know what that is like Olya to be raped because is is awful. For 40 minutes after I got out of the situation I got into the shower and scrubbed myself raw, blood streaming into the drain until I could hardly walk. Crying all the while. Not knowing that during this time a miracle was beginning to take shape. My child.

    You have no idea, no clue what it is like to be a sheep amongst wolves nashing their teeth ready to get their claws into you and your child. I did take responsibilty, very early on: I FOUGHT FOR MY CHILD and won. I only lost her because the adopters took me back to court and through some corrupt measures managed to get a judge outside his normal jurisdiction and a decision in their favour.

    That was a man made decision. Nothing to do with God. Because God doesn't have us on strings. We have free will and many people choose to do bad things with that, even so called christians. God doesn't go around smiting people here and allowing people to live there, healing this person and allowing the next person to die. That is just plain garbage. If he did, there would be no such thing as free will and we would all be puppets on a string.

    As for giving birth to three children, so what? What is the significance of that here? So have I and they are all MY children. God doesn't put babies in wombs to be adopted if that is your way of thinking (I have heard that before and it is vile and wrong).

    I don't blame my parents by the way... you would know that if you took the time to read anything in my blog. You have come here have cocked and just decided to have it out with me because why exactly? Wishing to adopt are we? Yur judgements you can take back as they have no place here and will find no rest on me or any of my other commenters, but thanks anyway. I welcome civilised discussion but of you choose to continue your rant, I will delete you.

    Myst, mother of a STOLEN child.

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  29. BINGO... she was a CASA worker, she thinks she knows it all LOL.

    I just wanted to say a huge thank you to Mei-Ling, sisterheping, maybe, Lissa, Beth and Jenni for your words. Some people just live in a world of their own where they are righteous and everyone else needs their help. It is sad for them as they are only deluding themselves. Anyone who feels the need to sit on a blog and judge those she or he knows nothing about is carrying around some huge issues of their own.

    I suspect she/he is either a PAP or trying to defend someone who is in the process of adopting and that is why they are here. No matter. She/he is only making themselves look like an idiot.

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  30. Olya- you come here spouting your God inspired bs- and expect to hear "Oh gee sorry you are right" Get a grip- none of us chose this- what we did dow as love to well if not wisely. Women have been getting pregnant out of wedlock since the start of time. Quit using the bible to support your opinon, open your mind and listen and read. And once you do, come back and talk to us then-

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  31. Oh, Olya honey, using the 'anger' label just doesn't cut it here. Do you think labelling someone is going to make us back down? Sweetheart, you have a lot to learn. At least try to impress me, or convince me you are a grown woman.

    I state with absolute confidence that I AM a better person than you. You came here to deliberately attack women who have children out of wedlock.

    I would rather lose a child to death than lose a child to adoption. Death is NATURAL. Adoption is not natural. It is sick, and hurts mothers and their children needlessly.

    You state you do not support rape or human trafficking. Bullshit. Baby brokers profit financially from the sale of innocent babies. Baby brokers abuse and violate a woman's human rights (and the BABY'S RIGHTS)to push through an adoption transaction. Women are raped of their children. You believe we deserve to be punished.

    "As far as being tied down and drugged, I didn't use pain meds to be clear minded and my hubby went everywhere with the babies after birth just to avoid possible mistakes."

    You didn't "use" drugs. Honey, you miss the point completely. Mothers were TIED DOWN and DRUGGED. Much like being raped.

    No one here is "attacking" you. We are responding to your attacks on us. We won't accept being told to shut up. Inconvenient, isn't it?You CHOOSE to be ignorant. Your arrogance is shocking. You have deliberately attacked women, who according to your dictates, deserve to lose their children because they don't wear a ring on their finger. You not only attack women condescendingly, you attempt to deny our experiences. You would not only deny baby brokers' actions are morally reprehensible, and acknowledge mothers and their children suffer horribly from the consequences of those actions; you come here to ATTACK mothers and tell us were not allowed to feel as we do, but that we deserve our pain. You're pathetic.

    You are a zealot. Do you have any idea how crazy and scary you make yourself out to be? You spew your hatred at women who love their children and deserved to be kept together.

    Why are adopters and baby brokers so threatened by a mother's love for her child? If adopters truly did give a damn about a child residing with them, they would PUT THE CHILD FIRST. But it's all about you, isn't Olya? You can't stop yourself from acting spoiled and selfish. You don't feel you should HAVE to. Adopters want to claim 'ownership' of their possession. The self-entitlement adopters display is disgusting and pathetic. (I do make a distinction between adoptive parents and adopters.) Adoptive parents don't remove a child out of his or her mother's life. They ENCOURAGE and SUPPORT a loving connection. They put the child and the mother first. They don't display the incredible insecurity, hatefulness and bitterness like individuals such as yourself.

    When your husband decides to run the hell away from you as fast as he can, will you willingly relinquish your children to strangers - clearly, you wouldn't be deserving or good enough to care for a child without your security blanket called marriage. How utterly ridiculous. Do you believe your husband also shares your sadly lacking views of sex outside marriage? I suspect he doesn't, sweetie.

    No one in their right mind would forgive an individual who took her child. You are beyond helping. I doubt you could forgive your own stupidity. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    (((Myst and all the other amazing mothers and wonderful people who are adopted here))) I want to thank you all. I wouldn't know what I would do without you. I know you from Myst's fabulous blog and other support forums. I will never back down from a condescending and hateful individual who attacks us.

    You see, Olya, for those of us separated, we can empathize and support those who are hurting. And you hate us for it:)

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  32. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  33. "I know a woman who chose to abort her triplets at 7m because where she lived there wasn't a way to give them up for adoption after birth."

    There is no place in any first world country where you cannot give a baby up for adoption after birth. If she truly had triplets she wanted to surrender there would have been a line of people around the block seeking to adopt them. Seems like you're just using the old ruse of "adoption prevents abortion."

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  34. well,
    there really is nothing more for me to comment on, it seems like everyone has already pointed out where Olya is misguided.

    Funny how someone would be sooo blind as to multiple times write YOU (and yes in all caps like that) in one post then in antoher say "I do not judge." ROFL

    She asked the question of "why attacking me anyway?" and didn't listen to the answers - which was that we are not attacking her personally, just doing her a gigantic favor of pointing out where she has obviously been brainwashed about what adoption is to the other two sides of the story (the adoptee and the original mom).

    It is an interesting observation that when 'we' talk about the real issues of the pain of adoption and HOW WOMEN WERE TREATED so their babies could be snatched and sold, that the best -- the BEST response we get is ... YOU'RE ANGRY.

    And surprise, Olya, anger is not a sinful or bad or wrong emotion. It is often the catapult for change. We stand united for change. Anyone who is not trying to buy their own baby would be able to research with openness to see the corruption and unethical practiceds in adoption. Otherwise, they would be angry too.


    I must put aside this woman's need to voice her very uneducated to opinion to simply say ...

    Myst, this was a very powerful post
    and I thank you for taking the time to and energy to expose a lie - that unfortunately is still very much alive and it's contamination continues to spread like a vile disease.

    Great, absolutely GREAT post!!!

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  35. Olya, I hear exactly what you are saying - and calling you on it. You are full of shit. You're also astoundingly deluded.

    I could actually feel sorry for your existence - if you bothered to have any self-respect and take responsibility for yourself and your mouth. Your idea of foregiveness is pathetic. You need to grow up.

    Have you ever bothered to try living your life and accept responsiblity - and credit! - just based on your own actions and capabilities? Do you always go running to your cross? For what? To come up with an excuse for another failure? What a shallow and sad life you have.

    I have the horrible feeling you would deny your grandchildren,were they born out of wedlock. That you would remind them of their lack of worth every moment you could.

    I could almost feel sorry for you... almost.

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  36. "You people are ANGRY!!!"

    As an adoptee who was separated from her parents due to lack of money that others (with responsibility) could have provided... yeah, I'm angry.

    I'm angry about the misconceptions. I'm angry that people choose to see me ONLY as my adoptive parent's nurtured result, rather than the my natural personality traits that came from my original parents I'm angry that people tell me how I "must" in regards to my own adoption, and if I don't feel the way they think I should, then I am the one who is defective.

    I am angry that so many people swallow the rhetoric and praise something while saying they would NEVER be able to do that themselves - therefore making a "birthmother" known as "The Other" for simply "opening her legs."

    I am angry that people dismiss the importance of biology, culture and language ONLY in the context of adoption, because the part about being adopted should compensate for any anger, sadness, disappointment and grief felt by the adoptee in regards to the circumstances which led up TO the adoption.

    And I am angry that people don't understand WHY I feel angry.

    Because, you know, I'm adopted.

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  37. Oops. Typos galore.

    "I'm angry that people tell me how I "must" FEEL in regards to my own adoption"

    P.S. Hey Olya, my adoption wasn't the result of an unmarried woman. Her only "crime" was not being able to fork over $10,000 USD for my health at birth.

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  38. Olya, you are the weakest link. Goodbye.

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  39. Hey Cheerio,

    Thank you :)

    I agree, it is sad this misconception is still alive and well... and being used to manipulate women into believing love and abandonment go hand in hand.

    As for the nutter I have currently buzzing around, there are some people so in love with themselves they are closed minded and have an inability to accept truth and their own faults.

    Thanks again Cheerio,
    Myst xxx

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  40. Hey Lissa,

    Thanks again. Like I said to Cheerio she loves the sound of her own voice. For a christian she is doing very well at forgetting that whole "why point out a speck of sawdust in your brother's eye when you have a plank of wood in your own" thing that Jesus said.

    My husband read her stuff and said it reminded him of either a mormon or a jehovah's witness... it firgures, they are worse than zealots as they have some very screwy ideas. Not to mention the mormons are great at taking babies from their mothers for the very crap she spouts. Anyway, I am no longer tolerating shit on my blog. It can go with the sewage where it belongs.

    Myst xxx

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  41. Hey maybe :)

    I suspect most of her spew is untrue. What I want to know if she isn't involved in adoption somehow, why the hell is she here? Makes me feel she isn't quite telling us everything. Anyway, as I said, she is no longer going to be tolerated. She has no idea how to be respectful and show decorum.

    Thanks again :)

    Myst xxx

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  42. Hi Mei-Ling,

    You know, you do not need to defend yourself. Whack jobs tend not to listen anyway and whatever power trip this individual is on means she has closed her mind to really hearing and being open minded. We know our own histories, we also know what happens out there is wrong. Anyone, ANYONE who believes adoption is a punishment for mothers is not an individual worth speaking to in my book. If they believe that causing pain and suffering is okay then they are truly warped in their thinking and nothing we ever say will change that.

    Thank you for your time in trying to help this person see the light but I feel she is beyond help for the time being.

    You have the right to feel the way you do Mei-Ling and no one else can tell you otherwise. The first step for taking responsibility for anything in our lives is naming what we feel or the situation and going from there.

    Thanks again,
    Myst xxx

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  43. Myst said, "Not to mention the mormons are great at taking babies from their mothers for the very crap she spouts."

    From an active Mormon and a natural mother, I wholeheartedly agree with this comment.

    As I have spent more time reading adoption blogs of all varieties, I can usually spot a PAP or AP who is also a member of the LDS church (commonly known as the "Mormons") within minutes because of the rhetoric they use. Unfortunately, many of the younger natural mothers tragically mirror that same rhetoric right back to the community.

    Trust me, few organizations are better qualified at convincing a young mother of her inherent worthlessness as a parent than LDS Family Services. They have perfected the fine art of subtle and coercive adoption practices.

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  44. Hi Valency :)

    I hope I didn't offend with that comment; its just that she comes across like she is either a Mormon or other fundamentalist religion. The belief that God would punish a woman for having sex outside of marriage is not to know the true heart of God. Jesus Himself said "Let He who is without sin cast the first stone" something this woman seems to have forgotten. He has stepped in front of a woman others condemned to death and treated her with the love and care she needed while others, like this Olya, stood by ready to stone her to death.

    I am sorry you have had experiences with the LDS church and losing a child. It is something no one should have to suffer.

    Thank you for popping by.

    Myst xxx

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  45. Olya thinks women should be punished for having sex before marriage...they should give their babies away to married people who deserve them.
    But single people adopt these days.
    And gay people adopt these days.

    And most importantly, lots and lots of women raise their babies successfully.

    Adoption should not be used as a punishment. No one deserves to lose their child and no child deserves to be separated from their mother.

    Olya lives in a world of black and white that thankfully no longer exists.
    Whether or not one is in a context of marriage, people deserve the right to raise their own children.

    Olya needs to go back under the rock in which she's been living because it's 2010 and women should not be punished any longer for creating life.

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  46. Well said Beth :) Thank you.

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  47. Hey Mary, I am so sorry I missed your comment! Thanks :)

    Yes, women have been getting pregnant since the dawn of time out of wedlock. In civilisations where there was no religion it was considered natural. Good luck to Olya to go back in time and tell them they are all damned and should give their babies away. They would probably eat her LOL, how apt!

    Myst

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  48. Wow!

    Sorry Myst. I didn't realize you had faced such an attack.

    And all I can do is continue to say, "Wow." Even though it doesn't surprise me, even though I know such thoughts still exist in abundance in this world. I'm still struck by just how it is that any one person in this world can say such hurtful things to another soul and then hide behind i with weak statements of "I'm not judging."

    In all that has been said, I can't offer much more. But I will try one thing from where and who I am . . .

    Though I am, and have always been, a believe in God and his word, I am not one who is well-versed in the bible, in the "stories."

    My belief, my upbringing resides firmly in my own perception and memory of what I learned through years of church and Sunday school.

    I can't tell you, in order the names of the books withing the bible. I can't quote off different passages or recall more than the standard stories we all know.

    But I can, without doubt, without question, say what I know from my heart, from my faith and from my love in God.

    And in there I know, that the God I believe in is not one who "punishes" any woman for having sex outside of marriage. I know he is one that looks down on these discussions and feels for all involved because he hears the hurt and pain behind everyone's words.

    I know my God does not want any woman, no matter her beliefs, to declare she knows he is punishing her for her sins. He does not want anyone to act in judgement, selfishness, pride or entitlement under his name.

    In what I see and know from my God in the simple, basic learning I have, I see a God who has never and never will demand a mother losing her child as punishment for her sins. I see a God who will be the final judge when others use him as their excuse to separate mother and child and, like Olya use his name as a reason for doing so.

    I see a God, in what I know and believe, who wishes that more compassion and understanding existed in this world. Who shakes his head at those who cast judgement and punishment over others and believe they have the answer to "save" others from their sins when they can't see inside themselves to their own sins.

    Olya, you are not, in any way, who I see as a true believer in God and his words. You are judgemental and quick to punish under God's name while standing in pride over others in your belief of being better than.

    You are not, to me, in any way, a true follower of God and his teachings. You are instead another show of why so many of us First Moms will turn away from the very place we should be seeking solace, our God and our church.

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  49. Well said Cassi... very eloquent (as usual :) )

    It is sad others still feel the need to punish us with their words and attitudes but like Aislin said in her recent post, all it does is prove what we say is true. Olya is a perfect example of the cruelty so many mothers encounter in their lowest moments of their lives. Instead of lowering a rope to help pull her fellow human kind up and away from the edge of the cliff they are hanging from; she is the sort who not only stamps on our fingers but kicks us square in the middle of the chest so that we fall.

    I am not a believer in the church. I don't have much respect for established religion, for certain writers who contributed to the Bible. Why? Because when I was raped and lost my daughter, they proved to be the worst of human kind; the ones NOT to trust. I still have a faith and through that, I know God would NEVER, EVER abuse an abused person and neither would he trample those who are downcast. The cross was not meant to cast judgement but to help ease our burdens. Those who use it to judge others will only be judged all that more harshly at the end of time.

    Thank you so very much Cassi for your words... they ring so very true.

    Myst xxx

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  50. You know the more I read the spew the angrier I got- I mean seriously! The Virgin Mary got pregnant out of wedlock- so yeah tell me again that marriage is the only way to have a baby- For gods sake Olya you need to take the blinders off and actually read for context as well as content! You obviously have something very wrong with you- so do us all a favor and go lay down by your dish-

    Women like you give me the shivers- and that is hard to do. I have become battle hardened as it were- and your words are just so much prattle that went in one ear and out the other. Those of us who have lived it from this side of the fence are just as capable of parenting, just as capable of being good mothers and honestly who do you think you are to come and say such vitriolic things to such a kind person as Myst?

    Tell you what, why don't you get yourself a sledge hammer, go find a nice big pile of sand and pound all that sand right up your ass.

    As for you comments on abortion, if truth be told, I would rather have aborted my child than gone through what I have gone through and what she has gone through. Your entitlement attitude shines through it all and you should be ashamed of yourself and how you spoke here-

    I will end this with an old Chinese curse- May you get exactly what you deserve~ Think about that sugar plum, really think about it!

    Myst I adore you, and don't let the idiots get you down! XOXO

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  51. Olya, please remember that Aislin's daughter and many many other "adopted" children were stolen by those who would profit from adoption. Only with (many) adoptions, coercion is used rather than a get away car and the result is a legal transfer of custody rather than an Amber Alert. So, its more of a white collar crime - quieter but just as destructive. In regard to your anger though, I would ask you to consider your reaction if the circumstances of this, or any other coerced adoption were different. What if Aislin's daughter had been stolen out of her six bedroom mansion when the nanny was in the other room? What if she was able to obtain publicity and had the coorperation of the FBI but was still (four years later) seperated from her daughter. What if, instead of having a blog like this, Aislin spent the rest of her life helping to find missing and exploited children, testified before Congress for legislation to protect children and then went on the host America's Most Wanted. Would you still be telling her to take responsibility for leaving a window unlocked, forgive and move on? Granted, Aislin knows that her daughter is alive and well and may even eventually be reunited. But, at this time I think facing the beast head on and fighting the system that took her baby away is the most helpful, most difficult, most generous and most responsible thing she could be doing to improve the world we all live in.

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  52. aaarrrgghh! sorry, I came from Aislin's blog so I was thinking of her. I should have said Myst!

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  53. As always, I walk away from reading here stunned and changed. My perceptions keep changing.
    Saying I am sorry for what has been done to you, to your child, to your family, well that wouldn't do any good, but I am sorry all the same. I think of my adopted son's birth parents often and as we plan for another SN adoption from China, I think of Mei Ling's words about her mother's only "crime" was not having 10k at birth to pay for her medical needs.
    That is so unfair. SO unfair. If we could have been there 4 years ago...we could have paid for our son's bill and he could still be with his mother and father! And yet, it just isn't that simple. How could we have known then? And now that we do know, we still cannot go over to China waiting to find a mother tearfully leaving her child on the steps of an orphanage to offer her money. There MUST be reform. I have little knowledge of how domestic infant adoptions work....but I know that there is much corruption.
    It is very foolish for any of us AP's to think that our love can conquer all. We adopt our child or children knowing (or at least we should know) that they are losing so much and that we can't ever just make up for those losses.
    I did find an organization where we can support mothers overseas wishing to Keep their child or children rather than give them up for international adoption!! Now, to find a program like that domestically as well! I know of one, but they can only help a very few mothers at a time and the need is so much greater than that!

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  54. Hi Myst,

    'Anyway, I am no longer tolerating shit on my blog. It can go with the sewage where it belongs.'

    Agreed! I had to get away from her hatred and condescending attitude. We need your blog and the truth you share.

    We've said it so many times - we aren't blaming those for actions they are not responsible for.

    (Myst, I have asked my daughter to read your blog. She can learn so much from you. Our stories are horribly alike. I know my daughter has been lied to:( I don't want her to hurt from those lies. I want her to know her mom loves her and fought like hell for her. I hope she reads the words of the mothers here and those who were adopted, and realizes what was done to us was needless and cruel. I hope she gets my letter-that it isn't withheld from her. You know what I mean.)

    Lissa
    XO

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  55. (((((Lissa))))) I would feel honoured if she read it. I also hope she doesn't find it too much for her to handle and that she can see that mothers just didn't up and leave their children.

    I know some women did that and that makes the rest of us look like we did too but just because some other woman did doesn't mean WE did and it shits me no end when we are lumped with the likes of them as we are so totally different!

    As for Olya, I spoke to a few more people about the stuff she was spewing and they were floored. They too feel she was a mormon or j-dub... otherwise she was a zealot and a fundamentalist christian. Either way it was all bs and not bible or God based but religious teaching gone bad crap. I won't tolerate the likes of her... her who says she isn't judging. I laughed when I saw that, she doesn't even know the meaning if the word she uses!!

    Lots of love,
    Myst xxx

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  56. Hi Myst. i just saw your comment on my blog today.

    I'm not sure if any of your readers will see this, but I felt the need to come here and represent myself since you didn't link back to me or mention my name.

    To everyone else, I am the writer of the initial blog, where Myst found the comment by "Paul", an adoptive parent, which so offended her. Myst, I have not read your blog before, but after going through all of these comments I have gleaned a bit of your story. It sounds truly horrible and I do not know enough about adoption malpractices or about your situation to speak to your experience, other than to say I'm so sorry for everything you must have gone through.

    I just wanted the opportunity to explain and represent myself to your readers, since I don't think you did that.

    As a fellow birthmother, I'm new to this whole debate. I placed my daughter 8 years ago, after just turning 19 a few weeks earlier. I wanted to keep my baby, but my parents said I needed to put her up for adoption. At the time, I was just a scared, confused teenager who had just spent half of her freshman year in college pregnant. I wish I had fought harder against my parents for what I truly believed in, but I went along with their plans without a fight.

    For several years I didn't feel intense pain. The first year or two was really bad, but college and then life in the big city kept me busy. It wasn't until I settled down and got married a year and a half ago, and then had a second daughter this past August, that I started to think of my adoption again in a new light. After becoming a (parenting) mother, the guilt I felt about relinquishing a previous child was unreal. I just can't fathom, today, that I was ever able to do that. I agree with one of your commenters that it almost certainly seems easier, for me, to imagine having an abortion than to have lived through what I did.

    Another thing that happened within the last year was that I started blogging. I follow several adoptive parents' blogs (just by chance, I didn't go looking for them) and decided to participate in the Primal Wound book tour. After reading Verrier's book, I think I got even more depressed about my adoption than I was before. I was in a pretty sad place for awhile and over the last few weeks I have started mulling a few things over.

    ....to be continued, I can't publish all of in one spot!

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  57. Then Paul's comment showed up. He's an adoptive father who was defending his family's bond as a family. He was saying that the love he feels for his children is REAL and that the love they feel for him and his wife is REAL. To him, it hurts him and offends him to think that, b/c of the Primal Wound, what they have is tainted or not real. That his children don't really love him b/c they'll always be broken by a love that came first and was lost. As a human being, even though I'm a birthmother, I can understand where he is coming from. And for my own adoption scenario, it personally helps me to realize that not all adoptions are terrible. That not all adoptees feel lost or like they're not with the ones they should be with.

    This does not mean that I don't relate to everything written by other birthmothers here. Again, I'm new to this debate (like the actual debate part not the experience of relinquishing a child). And I don't know the nuances or laws or facts about adoption in this country - what's legal, what's not, the history of it, the horrors of it. I just know what happened to me and I can't say I was coerced. I do believe, after giving it some thought and reading the Primal Wound, that birthmothers should be given SO much more support. That adoption SHOULD be a last option. That is makes no sense that we pay other people to take care of children (foster parents, daycare) but no one supports a young mother who needs that support. These were things I just didn't think about before, and now that they've been brought to my attention I agree whole heartedly.

    I guess I just think that you can't paint all adoption scenarios with the same broad stroke. There are some truly, horrible, sad stories out there. But there are also some lovely ones. And it makes me feel better to think that my daughter is having a lovely life (which from what I can tell she is, semi-open adoption for me). Of course I ask myself the questions of "what if" and wishing I could go back and do things differently and keep her, but I can't change the past so I choose to look forward, positively, and hope that a) she's happy and loves her family and b) maybe they'll be open minded enough to let me be a part of that family in some way, some day. That's where I am now.

    I am trying to remain openminded myself and to not alienate adoptive parents, birthparents or adoptees who may read my blog. So when I read Paul's comment, I heard the words of a father who loves his children. I didn't feel offended by his words and I felt that in the discussion of the Primal Wound, his was an opinion that had a right to be heard as well as all of the other opinions opposing his.

    So that's all I have to say. I think I'll comment about this on my blog now too, but that may take me awhile to get up there. I hope, Myst, that you publish this for your readers just so that my point of view can be expressed.

    Thanks for taking the time to read this and my blog post from the book tour.

    Sincerely,

    Leigh
    Fellow Birthmother
    http://www.sturdyyetfragile.blogspot.com

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  58. "There are some truly, horrible, sad stories out there. But there are also some lovely ones."

    I do want to point something out: When an adoptee says she's had an awesome childhood and overall life so far, but still wishes she had been raised with her original family... does the "there are some bad stories" line still come in?

    What if it has nothing to do with anything specifically "bad" that happened in the adoptee's life after the papers were signed?

    What if it just boils down to the adoptee feeling as though she should have been raised in her original family?

    It's not just those who have had bad experiences that speak out about adoption. It also includes those who have had GOOD experiences, who still wish adoption hadn't happened to them.

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  59. Hi Leigh,

    Thanks for popping by.

    I didn't link your blog because I didn't want to start anything... I have seen what linking blogs can do and I didn't want that for you.

    His comment is revolting. Truly it is. This is not the only line I am revolted by but it was the main one for me and as such I wrote this post.... but there is so much in his post that is typical adoption bs that it makes me gag. This is in no way an attack on you and I am sorry if it came across that way... not intended.

    I don't paint adoption with a borad brush based on its stories. For me, I just cannot be comfortable with or accept a law that is solely based on dishonesty. Because that is adoption through and through. The law itself is not about love. It isn't about compassion. It isn't about finding out what is really in the child's best interests ( I have seen that line be used and failed so many times). It is about creating a lie out of a child's life to satisfy the needs of another person. W.R.O.N.G on all levels.

    There are many adoptees who do not agree with me; that is fine. But it doesn't change the fact of the matter. Same with other mothers who chose to place their children willingly. And I know adopters don't but generally to be honest I don't care about that because they gain (again this is not implying all adoptive parents are the same but I am talking in general and large populations of adoptive parents here) from this lie.

    I didn't see Paul as defending "love" because no one needs to defend that. He was defending his need to completely replace those children's families. Yes I know what he went on to say but reading between the lines, he was just having a pity party... to see the evidence for that you only have to see that he feels adopters are vilified. Well he can thank himself for that. He became one, he did it to himself. And last I looked they are far from vilified but they get more attention and support than the mothers trying to keep their babies and the adoptees who struggle to deal with the aftermath of what it is to be adopted. Yeah, he is so wrapped in himself he cannot see for looking. I really feel sorry for those girls of his!

    Myst :)

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  60. Myst -

    This is from a bit further up, but no, I am in no way offended by your comments about Mormons. It would take a lot more than that, trust me. ;)

    And you are so right, "The belief that God would punish a woman for having sex outside of marriage is not to know the true heart of God." That's the kind of God I believe in and the kind of God that lies at the very center of LDS theology. It just seems that a lot of folks haven't figured it out yet.

    (Off to pop some more popcorn to keep me company as I follow this very interesting discussion....)

    M.

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  61. Well said Mei-Ling.

    From what I can tell, unless you (not you you, you in general) back adoption itself up, regardless of how much you love your adoptive parents, you are painted as "ungrateful and angry/bitter/both/all" and immediately boxed into the anti-adoption category.

    People tend to think that if you are agaisnt adoption it means you are anti THEM... they do not realise the issue extends beyond them and their personal situation.

    Myst

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  62. Thanks M :)

    My intention with what I write is never to offend but I know I will never please anyone.

    With words on a screen it can be soooo hard to get a point across as words can have any emotion attached to them that a reader can attach without it being the meaning the author intended, if that makes sense.

    Anyway, thanks :)

    Myst xxx

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  63. I just thought that what he has to say in defense of adoptive parents (as it pertains to our discussion about the (disputed) existence of the Primal Wound in adopted children) was very interesting and he has a point.

    DISPUTED ? who by ? adoptive parents and some birth parents ?
    How about speaking to adoptees.

    Im 43. Im adopted, jump on my blog Leigh and have a good read through about how adoption REALLY IS

    You are living in fantasy land thinking that its all peaches and cream for your given up for adoption baby.

    And hey if thats what gets you through life then fine so be it, im not here to judge you... but if you truly want to acknowledge that there actually could be a hurt deep in your child, then get yourself on the list for contact and get finding her when she is 18!
    And maybe she won't want to know you, so be prepared for that.. but then at least you can know you tried..

    I'm 43 Ive had two mothers and lost both. one to adoption and one to death. My adoptive mother died and my birth mother doesn't want to know me.

    The reason adoptive parents DENY the existence of primal wound or that their adoptive child might be hurting is because they don't want to face the truth. Because that in some way then makes them at fault.

    I Can tell you that when I read Verrier's book I cried through EVERY page as well.. Do you want to know why ? Because for the first time in my entire life someone understood what I was going through, someone was writing the words that I was feeling inside of me , had been feeling inside of me for many MANY years.. someone else GOT IT.

    I have an entire family in the UK, a massive heritage. Yet I was given up for adoption, I was the SECOND Baby that my mother had out of wedlock, to which one was bad enough but to do that to the family (her thoughts) again was too much ... and besides she'd have no life ! One was hard enough.

    I was brought to Australia in 1968 where I have remained. I have had contact with her, but she is so bitter, so much in pain inside (that she CHOOSES not to acknowledge) that she can not have a relationship with me.
    And because of THAT I can not have a relationship with my OLDER Sister because she feels disloyal to our mother

    I do have contact with Aunts and cousins though.

    I have NEVER Got over being adopted
    NEVER

    And I have had a beautiful life with my adoptive parents in that they loved me to pieces, they gave me everything I could ever want.

    Except what I born to....

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  64. Hi Myst, I just wanted to stop by once more to say that I totally agree, I'm not trying to stir the pot or cause drama. I guess I just realized that in my post about Paul's comment, I never explained why I did think he has a point, so I wanted to do just that.

    But no hard feelings and I also know that it's completely understandable that you have a different point of view from him and that what he said upset you. I also agree with you that his comments about adoptive parents being villified is a stretch. Yes, it's his point of view, but I think he's pushing it too. Like you said, adoptive parents seem to have all the power and make all the rules, so that comment was a bit off in my mind as well.

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  65. First -- you women ROCK! (Except that Olya one.) I was directed to this discussion from another blog and read it all with great interest. I'm learning a lot.

    I'm the wife of a guy who learned three years ago, at age 42, that he was adopted. We jumped into the topic blindly, and...have my eyes ever been opened!

    Two things I want to tell you...maybe it will give you some hope that people who skip along thinking, "La la la, adoption is great! A baby is the greatest gift a woman can give to a couple! La la" CAN change.

    First scene: five years ago. Remember, I don't know yet that my husband was adopted. I'm watching that show "Crossing Over" with that John Edward guy. He's trying to find out who it IS in the audience who adopted a child because there's "someone coming through" who wants to communicate with his son, who recently adopted a child. All of a sudden he spies the cameraman and bingo! -- he's the one! Yes, it's his dead father coming through, complimenting him on adopting a child, and wow, isn't this amazing, he wasn't even in the audience, he's the cameraman. And John Edwards says something like, "I truly believe that when you adopt a child...that child's SOUL truly was destined to be 'your child.'" The cameraman is tearfully nodding his head in agreement. His adopted son was "meant to be his"; even before the boy was born, his soul was destined to be with this guy. There I am, wiping my eyes and nodding my foolish head in agreement. It was so moving! Of course, today, I'm horrified that I was all moved and choked up over the beauty of it all.

    Second scene: My friend and I, age 16, are talking about the remarkable physical similarity between my friend and her mother; after all, she was adopted, so they aren't biologically related at all. My friend says nonchalantly, "Well, God makes that happen. When you adopt a child, God seals that family by making the child look like her parents." I'm amazed -- of course that's why she looks like her mother! What a miracle it is. I'm disgusted now that she was fed that line by her adopters and that I gobbled it up, too.

    But look at me now. By chance, I was given the book _The Girls Who Went Away_ to read just two weeks before we learned of my husband's adoption. I'm a rabble-rouser by nature anyway, and I cry all the way through it. I'm stunned and horrified and furious that I hadn't known "the real story" before. Two weeks later, it hits us right where we live; my husband is a part of some woman's story, back in 1965.

    I've never looked back, friends. Don't stop talking, and don't let anyone silence you. Remember what Gandhi said: "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. THEN YOU WIN." Culture shifts, and people will see that they've been holding on to false assumptions about adoption. They will learn, and they'll change. I did!

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  66. Sorry Mary A, just read your comment... thanks for popping by! Thanks for your comment... Ghandi's words are inspiring. We can always use the encouragement :)

    I am sorry it took your husband so long to find out about his adoption; I know from other friends who are late discovery adoptees how much of a shock this can be. I hope he (and you) both have the support you need to go through all this, it can really be a mind job!

    Thanks again and Cheers!

    Myst

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  67. Wow. Just wow. I'm of course reading this over a month after it happened, as I just found your blog today. And I'm absolutely stunned at what you have had to put up with here at Olya's hands.

    It seems for all of your theological rhetoric, Olya, that you've forgotten one of the most important lessons of Christianity: that only those who are without sin should point out the sins of others. Shame on you.

    It's incredibly disheartening to me to see how many prospective adoptive parents come to adoption with minds locked down tight to any view of adoption beyond the one they've fabricated for themselves.

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